School Teacher To Assisted Living Investor With Todd Dexheimer

Mario Dattilo
 Hey everyone. Hey everyone. I'm super excited to have Todd Dexheimer. My friend from Minnesota on the meeting with us here today, he is going to be talking about a lot of good stuff in commercial real estate. What I like about Todd is he is diversified. He's invested in multiple property types. He's well-seasoned been in the game for quite awhile and is just an all around good guy. Todd, thank you so much for being on, man. I appreciate it today. Yeah. 

 Todd Dexheimer
 Mario really appreciate you having me on I super excited to be here. Let's let's do this. Let's dive in man. 

 Mario Dattilo
 I was on Todd's podcast, the pillars of wealth creation a year ago or so. Yeah. It has, I might need to come rip that up again sometime, but I also wanted to mention that Todd owns several companies. Most known will be in Durham capital. Also he is one the organizer, one of the organizers of Northstar real estate conference. And, and that's a Minnesota big real estate conference that goes on every year. I was blessed to be able to speak there last year. It's just a really group of people, all commercial real estate. I would say that Todd is a super well networked in the industry as well, just from that conference in his podcast and everything. So let's dive right into this man. You are investing in what apartments assisted living. Is that the two right now? 

 Todd Dexheimer
 Yeah, two main things I've got, we've got some investments in other assets. We last year we bought a 82,000 square foot industrial slash office space. For the most part, that's our focus as multifamily and then senior living. If a great opportunity with a great operator presents ourself in something else, we may take a look. 

 Mario Dattilo
 W what markets are you looking in right now? What are you working? 

 Todd Dexheimer
 Yeah. Good question. Multifamily, we're mainly in Kentucky, Tennessee, Ohio, and in the assisted living right now. We're exclusively in Minnesota and Wisconsin. We'll see about expanding, but I always like to expand slow, move, slow real. Estate's a slow game anyway. Let's make sure we move slow, move smart. 

 Mario Dattilo
 It is yeah. Taking on too much where you can't handle it can create real problems, especially when you're taking on turnaround properties that need a lot of lift. I know that's kind of what you do. A lot of value add stuff, right? Yup. 

 Todd Dexheimer
 Yeah, absolutely. We like, we like big projects that we feel like we can create a lot of value in a fairly short period of time. So definitely. 

 Mario Dattilo
 How did you get into this man? Like how did you get into real estate and then ultimately commercial real estate? 

 Todd Dexheimer
 Yeah, man, that's a story that takes us back away. Back in it honestly started when I was substitute, I, we used to be a teacher, right? So I was a high school teacher. I was teaching industrial tech would tack metals, automotive, that type of stuff. And, but prior to that, I substitute taught for a little while I graduated, there was of time substitute top before I got my degree and substitute students super boring. I started reading these books and I was reading these entrepreneurial books and kind of put that in the back burner. Really loved them, but put it to the back burner. Cause I was supposed to be a teacher, but very quickly I realized this is not for me. I think I told my wife was six months into teaching. Probably more like six days into teaching. Like I gotta do. I gotta figure out what I'm going to do when I grow up. 

 Todd Dexheimer
 I can remember still like, just we're new, I don't know if were married. I think were newly married and I'm like, I gotta figure out what I'm going to do when I grow up. Just reading a lot of different books, I'm like this real estate is, seems like, it seems like it's something for me. I did construction, remodeling, construction through the summers. That's how I paid for college. That's how I earned of extra money outside of teaching because teachers I know surprising. They don't make a lot of money. So, but so it made sense that like it take, I read a book by Ken McElroy called the ABCs of real estate investing. I believe it's called. And I was like, this is it. This is what I want to do. And, and so just started doing that. In 2008, I went and bought my first property after reading books for probably a year and a half. 

 Todd Dexheimer
 Haven't looked back down, it's been 2008. I started buying these single family duplexes stuff like that, did a lot of flips and then eventually worked my way into apartment buildings. 

 Mario Dattilo
 I can not see you as a teacher. And you're too entrepreneurial for that. And I love teachers. My mom's a teacher, my mother's mother-in-law's a teacher, great people, but I just, I have a hard time seeing you be in like a, in a very structured environment. Like no, 

 Todd Dexheimer
 No. And that's what drove me squirrely. Right? It was just like, I couldn't do it. I loved the teaching aspect. I love some of the stuff about it, but that's why I love doing the, you mentioned the north star real estate conference. You mentioned the pillars of wealth. That's why I love doing these things because I still love teaching. I love giving information to people. I really enjoy the impact that it can make and connecting with people that like I heard this and it changed the way I think, or man you've made such a big difference. Like that's amazing when you hear that. And, and I'm sure you've heard that too is like, wow, like that's so powerful. That's what I love about the teaching aspect. But yeah, you're right. Like it just, it wasn't for me. At the same time, like Mario will look at when you're 18, 17, 18, and you're trying to figure out what you're going to do for the rest of your life. 

 Todd Dexheimer
 You're taking all these little tasks that the schools give you and they're telling you should be this and that. The other thing they don't tell you should be an entrepreneur. Nobody ever says you should be a business owner. That's just not one of the career choices. It's not even possible when you're that age. At least for me, I'm in a middle-class family, maybe leave a little lower middle-class family. Nobody's an entrepreneur go to, go to work, get a job and do the thing that, 90% of people do. I didn't know, business owners and the only business owners I knew were like, I can't do that. Like I'm not from that type of environment. 

 Mario Dattilo
 Yeah. You're so you, so you get the itch to get into real estate. How do you actually start doing your first deal and how do you end up making it into commercial real estate? 

 Todd Dexheimer
 Yeah. My very first deal, I looked at so many houses, by the way, I didn't, I wanted to buy an apartment building right away, but I didn't know how to do it. I didn't have the money. My desire was to buy an apartment, but single family was the only thing that made sense to me. I met all these, I knew, okay, let's find these realtors that have this investment type background and sorry, I can still remember. I was, I feel bad for some of these guys that showed me around to these houses because I had no business doing what I'm doing. By the way, if you're listening to this, like, that's what you need to do. You just need to get out there. You just start looking at houses. I was driving for houses. I would literally put it and put it in Carleton sheets and Robert Kiyosaki and stuff like that in CDs into my car. 

 Todd Dexheimer
 Now you can just listen to a podcast, but that wasn't available back then, but drive around and I'd drive around to these houses and like, look at houses. I didn't even know what I was looking at. I was just like, oh, I want to buy that house. Oh, I want to buy that house. You know? You start meeting these realtors and they're showing you houses. That's kind of how I got my start. Finally found a house, made a lot of sense, bought a for actually mark about three houses all at once. Pretty much within like a couple of weeks of each other. Crazy. Yeah. I had no money by the way. Very little. My wife and I saved up 25 grandish and we bought our first rental property, bless her heart. She allowed me to take all of our savings to buy this first property that between the down payment and the construction, that was pretty much the rest of our money. 

 Todd Dexheimer
 Besides the, four or five grand that we spent on her own house that were living in. We got an FHA construction loan, two or three K loan to fix that up. That was a foreclosure. The rental property was a foreclosure, bought that for 65,000. I borrowed money from my brother in law. We actually partnered together to buy this house that we flipped. I didn't put any money into that deal. Those are the three deals kind of all at once. The flip was a flop made no money. I think I put in, like a thousand hours of work and I made maybe a thousand dollars, Hey, but you made money, but I made money. We, we did make money. I don't even know if I ever got that money, quite frankly, but getting your partner on that check with my partner, maybe he owes me a thousand dollars. 

 Todd Dexheimer
 The, the single family home that I bought though for a rental still own to this day, we bought it for $65,000. We put another 15 ran into it. I did all the work. I shouldn't say I did all the work. We did all my work. My wife was there. My parents even came and helped me out for a couple of days. I had some friends that came and helped me out. That's just how it goes at the start. You just got to get stuff done. Were able to then refinance that I met a great, a couple of connections that helped me get a refinance done and we pulled money out of it. This was during the crash, by the way that things were already, people were running for the Hills and somehow I was able to refinance, pull some money out and then continue to repeat that for quite a while I did 150 fix and flips and it had about a hundred rental units, mostly one to four family, 13 unit, some small stuff like that. 

 Todd Dexheimer
 And then. 

 Mario Dattilo
 You self managing all those. 

 Todd Dexheimer
 To self managing. Yeah. Yeah. Self-management flips the flaps, 

 Mario Dattilo
 Single family rentals, 

 Todd Dexheimer
 Single family and duplexes and fourplexes and stuff like that. Yeah, I mean, it was a man, a lot of work and the market wasn't as easy then as it is now. Right. It was still easy. It w I can't say it was too hard, but yeah, eventually I just said, what am I going to do? Do I want to keep doing this? No, this is not, I don't want 1,001 to four family rentals. I just don't see myself doing that. And so what do I do? The most logical next step was to go bigger. That's exactly what it did started going bigger. 

 Mario Dattilo
 You started looking at add multifamily, larger multifamily. 

 Todd Dexheimer
 Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I started looking at multi-family started, were looking at smaller stuff, 10 unit, 20 unit type buildings. Honestly, I hired a mentor who Trevor McGregor mindset kind of coach. I just needed to get out of my own brain more than anything. I, I knew enough about real estate and what I needed to do, but I couldn't get out of my own way to go to the next level. It honestly, it was him that I was talking about another gentleman that owns a lot of rental apartment buildings. I said, I want to do that. I, I got to buy a couple of smaller buildings, just kind of work my way up, but I want to get, a hundred, 200 unit building. He was like, why do you need way as well? I got to get the experience. He goes, you realize that guy you're talking about bought three single family homes. 

 Todd Dexheimer
 His next deal was 150 unit apartment building. He's like, you are way smarter. You've got way more experience. There's no reason you can't buy a 150 unit apartment building. 

 Mario Dattilo
 It's all in your head, man. It's all on your head. 

 Todd Dexheimer
 I'm like, you're right. So quickly, my paradigm shifted. I went out and I didn't buy 150, but I went out and bought an 84 unit. Within a couple months I had 120 units, a hundred and purchased. Within probably four to five months of him telling me that I owned 204 dual units, 

 Mario Dattilo
 I think a lot of times people spend lot of time trying to plan and prepare and learn. It's super important to get your education, understand what you're doing so you can make bad mistakes. A lot of times people know more than they realize, and they just have to start taking action, looking at deals and underwriting deals and making offers. And you learn that way. I mean, you're going to flop, you're going to make mistakes. You're going to screw up bad, but that's how you really learn how to do it, do the craft, right? I mean, you can only read and learn so much, got to actually just go out and do it. You can do bigger deals, better deals than you realize. If you just work it. I mean, 

 Todd Dexheimer
 Exact. 

 Mario Dattilo
 Grit that grit, that work ethic. A lot of times, it just pushes you right through all the challenges for you. 

 Todd Dexheimer
 It is just to, you got to take action. I know this. Some there's some very well-educated people that I know they've went to all the conferences they've done. They've, they've hired mentors, one-on-one mentors. They, they've read all the books and yet they still don't take action and they wonder why they're not successful. It's because they're in their own way. The, you just got to get out of your own way. Sometimes you have to take action. There's no point in knowing all this. If you don't take action, the people that are successful are not reading every single book. They're not going to every single conference and two. 

 Mario Dattilo
 Hiring. 

 Todd Dexheimer
 Because they're taking action. Right. Right. Like you said, you still gotta be prepared, like listen to this podcast, read some books, but you have to take action. You're going to learn on the field. That just is how it is. 

 Mario Dattilo
 Yeah. I actually have heard several people talking about like their systems and KPIs and all this kind of stuff and hiring people to help them do calls or help them to do all this different stuff. I'm like, why aren't you doing that? Why aren't you the one on the phone? Why aren't you doing the mailers? Why aren't you doing all the work? Like why you just got so much going on? I just need to make sure that I keep it consistent. Like, what else could you possibly have going on if you don't own any PRI any buildings yet. Really that should be what your main focus is the marketing and lead gen and focusing on finding deals. If you're going to get help, get it in the admin side, get it on the stuff that doesn't matter, because just taking action and looking at deals is where you're going to get that first deal done. 

 Mario Dattilo
 So, analysis paralysis, and also just of fear. I think people are afraid to pull the trigger or they're, they don't really want to talk to people because it's not their strong suit, but two, you're going to better. You're going to better than any VA is ever going to be at cold calling and talking to owners and all that. At some point, yeah, you might hire somebody to help you with that. In the beginning, you gotta hit it hard. So you know what you're doing? So. 

 Todd Dexheimer
 A hundred percent good. 

 Mario Dattilo
 Stuff. What got you into, I understand apartments. There's a clear graduation from single family, small multi-family to larger multi-family what got you into the assisted living facilities and what's kind of the attraction there. 

 Todd Dexheimer
 Yeah. I've seen the, the demographic studies, right? I know the baby boomers and that certainly they're coming. The, the wave is quite frankly, it's still not even here yet, but it's going to be a big wave and it's going to go for a long time. I knew all that and I knew I wanted to be getting into that industry somehow some way, but just didn't know what that looked like until I had a friend of mine and now my business partner, Justin, he reached out to me and he said, Hey, I got this assisted living deal. I want you to take a look at it. I said, no way, I have no interest in that. That's just not up. My that's not a niche of mine. It's not up. My alley is like now. Yeah. I think it's a great deal, blah, blah. I'm like, okay, I'll take a look. 

 Todd Dexheimer
 That's fine. Kind of pushed to the side. I didn't look calls me up like a week later. Hey, what'd you think of that deal? I'm like, sorry, I've just been so busy. I haven't looked at it. Give me another week. It tells me the next week. What'd you do? What'd you think of the deal? I'm like, I still haven't looked at it. I'll tell you what, I'll look at it and I'll get back to ya. 

 Mario Dattilo
 I've never done that. Yeah. 

 Todd Dexheimer
 I look at the deal and I'm like, holy crap, this looks like a really good deal. I wonder if this is true. I have a conversation with them and we walk through the whole deal, go tour the properties. I'm like, you know what? I've got some cash sitting around. Let's do it. So bought a smaller building. I had the capital sitting around as a couple of hundred grand for the down payment and we bought it. And the cashflow was really strong. I think the first six months out of the, sorry, not six months, first, nine months out of the, investment I made, which was like 200. I think it was two 50 made about $120,000. I thought, okay, this seems to work. We started buying some more and started buying more. So now we own about 350 units. What's the traction. When we're talking on the financial side, we're talking about very strong cashflow. 

 Todd Dexheimer
 We're buying these buildings for a very good price. The market's soft right now. The market's off because of COVID really did a number on senior housing. A lot of seniors stopped moving into these places. Quite frankly, you couldn't even move them in because they couldn't do showings. Couldn't allow people into the buildings. He couldn't do showings for a long period of time. Naturally what happens in senior housing, especially assisted living? No, the average age is 82 years old, average age of an incoming 82 years old. So guess what happens? People die naturally, right? COVID or no, COVID, they're still going to die. And if nobody's moving in, what happens? 

 Mario Dattilo
 Your occupancy plummets, 

 Todd Dexheimer
 Right? I used to be plummets. We're finding these buildings with low occupancy, burnt out owners. They had to spend extra money on PPE. They had to do all these things to make sure their buildings, didn't have a COVID outbreak and they're burnt out. We're getting these opportunities presented to us that, just a year ago would have been, double the price. Wow. We're able to come in and instill, even to this day, we're able to come in now, it's starting to stabilize. We're not maybe seeing quite as good of a, of deals presented to us, but we're still getting great opportunities. We're getting seller financing options. I've got two deals under contract right now. I can't talk too much details, but seller's financing one of them, sellers financing about 14% and the other of the down payment. I'm getting bank loan at 80% and I'm getting seller financing for another 14%. 

 Todd Dexheimer
 Nice. I got to come up with 6%. The other one's just a hair less than that. 

 Mario Dattilo
 Hey, Todd, that's a pretty high loan to value compared to what I would've thought you would've said for assisted living, I would have expected assisted living to be lower loan, to value just due to the market risk and all that kind of stuff. And with COVID and all that, 

 Todd Dexheimer
 You're buying these properties at low occupancy. So 75% or so occupancy. Yup, yup. At that occupancy, I'm buying it at an 11 cap. 

 Mario Dattilo
 Nice. 

 Todd Dexheimer
 That's where the risk is. Yeah. Definitely not quite as high because I'm buying this asset at a 75% occupancy at that occupancy at 11 cap. If I can get to the occupancy up to 80%, or now I'm at a 15 cap, if I can get up to 90% now I'm at a 20 whatever cap. 

 Mario Dattilo
 Strong that's really. The lenders looking at it saying, Hey, this is a low risk deal for us. We're coming in with a professional experienced operator. You're buying it cheap. Yeah, it might be 75 or 80% loan to value, but it's more like 75, 80% loan to cost because your values significant. You're buying it for a significantly under market value. I like that. 

 Todd Dexheimer
 Yeah. That's awesome. We're trying to buy for under appraised value of just the real estate. We bought a portfolio and it was in Wisconsin and we bought it for 13.3, 5 million and the appraised value came in at 17.85 million. That's just the real. 

 Mario Dattilo
 Estate. 

 Todd Dexheimer
 Business. 

 Mario Dattilo
 So, so let's talk about that . This is living, you've got, so do they typically split out the business and the real estate in the offers? I mean, are they being valued in two different ways or is it all combined like you would have in multi-family. 

 Todd Dexheimer
 Yeah, that's a good question. Depends on the broker. You're going with, if you're going, if you're dealing with a business broker who's used to selling businesses, they're going to break it out. If you're going with a broker who is used to selling real estate, they're not going to, you're buying an assisted living on EBITDA and you're also buying it or you're buying it on cap rate. It kind of depends on which who's wearing the hat really. 

 Mario Dattilo
 Very unique. That's really? 

 Todd Dexheimer
 Yeah, it is. 

 Mario Dattilo
 In real estate. I mean, typically it's a cap rate. There's a few businesses or there's a few properties that are similar to that, but not many. That's cool. Yep. Yep. So it's better. I mean, are you targeting the brokers who are selling real estate then because they're not doing it on multiples of EBITDA. Okay. 

 Todd Dexheimer
 We, we like targeting the brokers who are selling it, selling the real estate because we feel like we're actually, the business brokers are typically, we're typically not even naturally in the ballpark with the business brokers. 

 Mario Dattilo
 Or. 

 Todd Dexheimer
 Going direct to direct, to sell or to. 

 Mario Dattilo
 A really good niche. It's a really good property type. Especially from an operation standpoint, is that something you're managing in house or do you have a third party management company running those? 

 Todd Dexheimer
 Yeah, we actually have a third party property management company, Rodney and them operates very similar to multi-family they're, they're hiring all the staff and we pay them a monthly fee. We have asset management calls, just the same. We do a little bit more. My business partner is big into leadership. He does some extra calls, leadership calls with the house coordinators at every property. So, so a little, we do definitely more hands-on, but the biggest, I think the biggest risk, the biggest challenge on assisted living, it's not, can we get people in the door to pay rent because we certainly can, we can get residents to fill those units, but it's getting the right staff in to make a good environment. And that's the biggest challenge. Of course, in today's environments, even more challenging. So, so that's our biggest risk is can we find good people to continue to work at the properties? 

 Mario Dattilo
 Yeah. I mean, I think there's probably just with the high demand for good people in every position, plus the cost of wages going up, I would assume. You can correct me if I'm wrong. Assisted living is going to have a higher payroll, hire a lot more staff than you have at most other property types, because it's really a business operating inside of that as well. So yeah, finding good people. Good. 

 Todd Dexheimer
 I gave you an example, Mario, for a 30 bed building, our payroll is about $600,000. 

 Mario Dattilo
 Wow. 

 Todd Dexheimer
 Think of if you had a $600,000 payroll for a 30 unit building, 

 Mario Dattilo
 What what's the rent look like? 

 Todd Dexheimer
 Well, there you go. The rent's a lot more too. I mean, you're looking at about 5,000 a month per resident. 

 Mario Dattilo
 What kind of expense ratio are we talking? 

 Todd Dexheimer
 So, yeah, so it kind of depends on the sizes of the building. Typically, your expenses are going to be 70% to your income. Sometimes more dependent on the size of your building. It's going to be more, if it's a smaller building is going to be less, if it's a bigger building, 

 Mario Dattilo
 Makes sense. Cause this, that includes food as well. Right. 

 Todd Dexheimer
 Includes food and all that care, medical supplies, all that kind of stuff. It also depends too, on the level of care. The higher level of care, of course your expenses are gonna go up. 

 Mario Dattilo
 Where are yours or yours, more on the higher level or the lower level of care, 

 Todd Dexheimer
 More moderate level. 

 Mario Dattilo
 Yeah. Okay. Yeah. That would make sense, especially, unless you really want to get into the medical side, I would want to definitely be on the moderate end. So yeah. That, finding someone, not only who's got the qualifications to do the work, because obviously you need people who, a lot of times they have actual qualifications, not just, work history. They actually have to have, they have to be licensed or whatever, but on top of that, they're actually good with people and that's, that's hard, especially if it's not, if you're not the highest paying company in town and you had some larger assisted living facilities to get, they've got bigger budgets cause they're, REITs or whatever running them. So yeah, totally get it. That's really interesting. Todd. What's your role in the whole thing and are you're syndicating these, correct? 

 Todd Dexheimer
 Yeah, we are. That, and that's kind of my role. My role for both and Doris capital invited care living, which is our assisted living is on the capital side. I am focused with the, with the multifamily, I'm very focused on the capital stack. I'm very focused on getting our and passive investors, right. Very focused on that syndication aspect of it. I I'm focused on the construction slash asset management side on the multifamily. I've got a big, long history of a construction background. And so I'm focused on that. In the assisted living, I'm very focused on the whole, I guess, the whole capital stack. The financing and the syndication, and then again on the construction, not so much the asset management, that's more my business partner on the asset management and, sourcing deals in that type of stuff. 

 Mario Dattilo
 What's the world looking like right now with the equity in the equity markets, syndicating? I mean, what does that look like right now? 

 Todd Dexheimer
 Yeah, that's a great question. We were just talking about this with my business partners. Cause we are in the middle of doing some raises and I can talk freely about the one we're doing right now. It's a 5 0 6 C, but we did a raise in. Part of this is we just did this previous raise was an $11 million raise and we got it all done fairly quickly, but the market is shifting quickly and stocks are just plummeting and they're going down so fast, Bitcoin's going down on, but real estate is actually doing great, right? Pretty much all aspects of real estate, mobile home parks, self storage, like everything. Real estate is doing great, but people are still like, I don't know what's happening here. We're feeling a pull back we're right now in the middle of doing this raise. It's, it's not that big of a raise. 

 Todd Dexheimer
 It's a $4.8 million raise, but we're seeing some investor hesitancy right now because of what's happening in the markets about putting their money into deal or where they would have you go all that investor. I would have expected them to do a hundred thousand and they're only putting 50,000 in. Sure. So it's just kind of interesting. 

 Mario Dattilo
 How much of that do you think has to do with interest rates and kind of inflation and what people are concerned about around you think it's a lot of that. 

 Todd Dexheimer
 I think it's a lot of that. I think it's just a lot of uncertainty in the market. You gotta, you Ukraine, is this going to be world war three, you've got interest rates. Are they going to go up to 10% or you got inflation? That going to be 20% is like, what's happening here in the world. The stock market going to crash, which then causes a recession and who knows what's happening? I think a lot of people are just let's just wait, let's just chill back and let's see what's going on. This feels again like 2007, 2000, it feels like that time again. I personally don't think it is, but I think a lot of people are kind of feeling that way or wondering if it is. 

 Mario Dattilo
 Yeah. A lot of times the sentiment causes things to change. We go, Hey, I don't know, it's getting a little scary. All of a sudden you get a lot of you get equity, pulling back, you get lenders kind of going, Hey, I think we'll go lower loan to value. I think we'll be , a little higher interest rate obviously. They just get more, everybody gets a little more conservative and what does that do? It accelerates, it creates more issues in the market as more fear and it spirals. Yeah, it actually just investor confidence, lending confidence, all of that affects the real world too. Because just like what you were saying, if you're out typically raising, raising capital and it's relatively easy and you're offering a call at 8% pref or something, a preferred rate of return or something like that. Everybody starts going, I don't know what happens. 

 Mario Dattilo
 You need to make the deal more marketable. And I'm not talking about you directly. I'm talking about in general capital raising the capital raising world, they have to make the, the offering more marketable for their investors. That means the capital cost goes up. Right. And then, so it just affects everything. And so, yeah. Lenders start saying, Hey, we need more reserves upfront interest reserves. It's now takes more capital to buy that same property. Plus, I mean, it's just a lot of different things that kick can kick in just purely on confidence. Yeah, I feel, yeah, I think there's definitely some reason to be concerned just with interest rates ticking up that will put some people under that are actually good operators. There will be people who, and I've talked about this quite a bit lately, but there's good operators out there that are going to get screwed, not screwed slammed because they would have bought something on very short-term debt, typically a bridge loan, two years, something like that interest only with a balloon at the end and they overpaid for it. 

 Mario Dattilo
 And, you know, 

 Todd Dexheimer
 They're expecting, they were expecting 3.5% interest. Now all of a sudden they're going to pay 5.5 or 6%. 

 Mario Dattilo
 That can, that alone can wipe you out when you're buying something at a price point that you are stretching for. Yeah, I think it definitely means that we should be cautious in what we're buying and make sure we're buying things that make sense and especially have good debt structure and equity structure to make sure because again, they could be a great operator. They could implement their business plan properly, but because of their debt structure, they could get caught at the end of the end of the movie, we'll say, and not be able to refinance. Now they're in default, even though the property is cash flowing well and doing well. Yeah, but I think in general, it's people are definitely holding back . There they're a little concerned, which is fine, but I think, deals will definitely speak for themselves. One thing that I think a lot of people forget about is 2008. 

 Mario Dattilo
 Like we, for a long time there, people remembered it. It was fresh in their mind, but I'd say in the last four years, people have kind of forgot what it's like when the market tanks it's like everybody pulls out it's overnight, the light switch turns off and lenders are like, yeah, we're not lending on real estate. Investors are going, I'm not investing in that. You sit in and we talk about it. I remember the feeling cause I was in real estate at the time and it was like, people were just, they wouldn't touch it. So, and it's a great opportunity if you've got access to that capital and you've got experienced long-term relationships with these equity partners so that when that time does come, as soon as they're confident enough, you can go in and start buying that stuff up, hopefully before other people are confident enough to buy them, and you can pick up some really good deals. 

 Mario Dattilo
 I mean, that's where wealth is built, 

 Todd Dexheimer
 Wealth is built. 

 Mario Dattilo
 And everybody's scared being there buying. Yeah. 

 Todd Dexheimer
 Yeah. That's one thing that I'm really trying to start to focus more on. I mean, my focus has always been on capital raising, but I'm really trying to focus on our capital sources. Right now a lot of my capital sources is, load up moderate net worth and liquidity. These are your investors that can put, 50 to 200, maybe 300,000 into a deal. Certainly we're looking to continue to build that, but we're also looking to continue to, we're also looking to build our ultra high net worth network. Those are the people that can put in, a million, 2 million, 3 million, 5 million check into a deal and they don't even think twice about it. We're trying to really build that, build our relationships with institutional players, build relationships with family offices. We have multiple buckets we can pull from, and that way exactly what you're talking about when opportunity does come and it might be this year, it might be next year. 

 Todd Dexheimer
 It might be 10 years from now. I don't know when it's going to be. We don't know, but we know eventually we're going to have a market. That's going to have some softness to it. Let's be ready to deploy that capital. We can't deploy capital if we don't have capital. 

 Mario Dattilo
 And you that. 

 Todd Dexheimer
 Yeah, absolutely. If you're not focused on that's not a, if somebody on your team is not, that's not their main focus. It needs to be. Somebody on your team needs to take hold of that, maybe it's you, and you need to figure out how do we grow our database in order to take more deals down. It's also building relationships with lenders too. And so we're trying to do that. We're trying to really build a strong credibility and in strong relationships. 

 Mario Dattilo
 Yeah. It's, it's a matter of educating your investor base. That they start thinking the same way you do, because you may be running into the fire and they're all trying to run out. Well, that's a problem. You got to get them all looking at it like, Hey, us being firefighters can be very profitable, but we all got to be carrying the hose together. You got to bring the water, I'll bring the hose, but you need to bring the water to, to put out that fire. It's definitely a good time to be doing that and getting that, getting investors that have that same view versus people who may be running, when they should be running in. Interesting off topic, but you and I met in Minnesota, we're both from Minnesota and we met at a dinner that Ron or had put on. I've got to give a little shout out to Ron or Ron, or is the guy behind the scenes that puts a lot of people together as a lot of business partnerships, deals, friendships, and relationships that have been established, but quietly behind the scenes, he's like the glue, he puts, a lot of people goes like a master networker, 

 Todd Dexheimer
 His name master the puppet master, right? He. 

 Mario Dattilo
 Is he's. 

 Todd Dexheimer
 Moving. 

 Mario Dattilo
 Pieces and nobody knows who's doing it, but it's. I got to give a shout out to Ron or because he's actually the reason why we know each other and why we're friends. He's been just a, just a rock star in both of our lives and is, is like I said, he's made some really awesome relationships for me, including this one. 

 Todd Dexheimer
 Yeah. That, it goes to the power of building good strong networks though. Right? I mean, it's, we haven't done business together. You and I, but I know we will, at some point in time we will refer investors to each other. We will refer somehow we're going to be doing business with each other. I know. I just, I know we will. That's the power of making good connections with people and that's, Ron was the connector there, make sure you're surrounding yourself with people that are connectors and make sure you're adding value. Right. I think you and I are both willing to add value, came up to my conference, added a ton of value. Super awesome. You've been on my podcast and I'm on yours. Like you, I feel the same way. You're willing to put yourself out there to add value to people knowing that eventually you'll probably get it in return, but if not, you'll just meet some cool people along the way. 

 Mario Dattilo
 That's right. Yeah. Totally agree with you. Can we just quickly talk about the north star real estate conference and Ida, I don't want to make it like a, an ad. I know you just had it, so you're not even pushing it right now. You got a whole other year to promote it, but can you just kind of give the 32nd high level of what is the north star real estate conference and like who are the people speaking at that. 

 Todd Dexheimer
 Or. 

 Mario Dattilo
 Who should be at it too? 

 Todd Dexheimer
 Who should be at it? Yeah. So, we're, we've been constantly tweaking it over the years. We're just constantly trying to find what our audience really wants. And, and this year we did it a little different, and again, I can just keep kind of playing with it and trying to decide. So, so last year we talked to all about really just a lot of different commercials. It like, so you came, you came in town. A lot of people came into town and talked about their niches and really added a ton of great value. This year. What I did differently is I called an advisory summit. I had specifically lenders, I had mortgage or sorry, real estate brokers. I had property managers. I had anybody you would put on your real estate team. They showed up and they were the ones up on stage. We actually went through an actual deal that we are working on right now. 

 Todd Dexheimer
 And we want from start to finish. I brought on the mortgage broker. That's, that's getting the loan down on it. I brought in the property manager, that's going to be managing it for us. I brought in and also do the inspections for us. I brought in the broker who found the deal and sourced it and brought it to us, brought in our insurance agent, brought in our cost segregation guy. We brought in all these people and were up on set, brought in my underwriter up on stage, and we're talking through how we got this deal, how we sourced to how we're financing, all this stuff. Just again, just trying to play with it, but who is it for it's for anybody who wants to learn how to do this business and how to take your business to the next level. We talk a lot of mindset and really push how to become extraordinary. 

 Todd Dexheimer
 I, I talked to the whole audience about it's so easy to be average. Everybody can be average at most. Most of us can be above average, but very few of us want to become extraordinary and maybe we want to become extraordinary, but we don't put the effort into becoming an extraordinary, we don't actually put forth that in. We just, we saddle for what everybody else is instead of lifting ourselves up and being a part of the high achievers that really wants to really make a difference in the world. That's who the conferences for people want to take their business, their success to that higher level. That next level. 

 Mario Dattilo
 Love it. Yeah, it was an awesome conference and I totally saw what you were doing with it. You're manipulating, not manipulating, but changing the structure on . I like what you said you did. I mean, you pretty much brought in your entire team, gave everybody an inside look on a real deal and you introduced them to all the different key players in a transaction. We both know that these commercial real estate transactions can be very complex with a lot of people involved. I think in the deal that we're closing later this week, we've got four attorneys and this is on our side. As the buyer only, we've got a land use attorney, we've got a environmental attorney. We had a securities attorney, a real estate attorney, probably missing some attorney in that list, Just in one transaction, just, and so the start, they start to get very complex and the people on your team are super important and having experts in those areas. 

 Mario Dattilo
 Being able to listen to those experts and hear directly from them is I can see very valuable. So yeah. Todd, one thing I really like about you man, is you are a big time educator. You give a lot, you teach a lot and both through the conference, but also your podcast. How can people get ahold of you, whether it's to do a deal with you or learn from me or whatever, 

 Todd Dexheimer
 Mario, appreciate that. Thanks. Thanks a lot for that shout out. That means a lot. So yeah. If they want to listen to the podcast, of course, after they listened to this pillows and wealth. 

 Mario Dattilo
 Creation, they need to finish this entire episode, 

 Todd Dexheimer
 A whole thing, every other, make sure guesses on the top. A pillars of wealth creation is the podcast can find it anywhere. You find podcasts. We've done over 500 episodes now. Yeah, we've been going for a while and if you want to learn more about what it looks like to invest, or just wanna reach out quite frankly, and have a conversation, just I think the best way to do it is to go directly to my endurance capital website. So it's an yep. And durosu capital.com. It's E N D U R U S S capital all one word.com and feel free to also reach out to me on LinkedIn and Facebook. I'm certainly on both of those networks as well. 

 Mario Dattilo
 Awesome. Well, this has been a lot of fun, man, and I'm looking forward to doing deals with you in the future, and I'll definitely hit you up when I'm next time up in Minnesota. We'll get together. So thanks again, man. Hey guys, I'll see you on the next one.